CRAP

Bill Wagner is reporting that starting nose guard and beastmaster Nate Frazier has been dismissed from the team. This is bad in so many ways. Everyone knows that the key to a good 3-4 defense is having that talented nose guard that can cover two gaps and draw a double-team, keeping offensive linemen occupied and allowing the linebackers to move to the ball. Nate really grew into that role last year, and a big part of the optimism people had about the defense this year came from the anticipation that he would continue that development and be even more dominating. So much for that.

As far as the big picture goes, losing Nate puts more pressure on the offense. Just as the offense carried the defense in 2007, the defense was expected to do the same for the offense this year, with that unit breaking in new starters at almost every position. Losing what is arguably your defense’s best player makes that task a bit more difficult.

The #2 NG on the depth chart as of now is junior Chase Burge (6-4, 270).

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118 Responses

  1. 3 2 1 … until some Army fan posts something stupid about USNA having lower standards for FB players, etc.

  2. army fans are pretty much the last thing i care about right now.

  3. This has been in the works for a while. I admire and respect the Super’s decision and have compassion for Nate. They will be alright–Burge, Stephens, and Tuani can all play nose and the defensive line is uncharacteristically deep this year.

  4. Well, this hurts, but at least we have some other beasts on the line. If Nate had issues with the honor concept, it’s best to have it cleared up now before he gets commissioned.

    I wouldn’t worry about Army. This just shows that we follow the rules.

  5. Why do people feel it necessary to use this sad story as a vehicle to slam Army?

  6. Nate will be missed on the field. This makes a difficult season even more difficult. All the best to Coach K and the team.

    As for this:
    “Why do people feel it necessary to use this sad story as a vehicle to slam Army?”

    Two even better questions:
    1. Who cares about Army?
    2. Who cares why people slam Army?

  7. I agree. We don’t need to slam Army. They are a service academy and their athletes make the same sacrifices that ours do. It makes us sound insecure and petty.

  8. Apparently SS98 and DJ, since they thought fit to mention them.

    It’s pretty lame to somehow turn this into a vacuous “our standards are higher than their standards” argument.

    Perhaps those answers should have been more obvious.

  9. Sucks to lose Nate. Great ballplayer.

    Fortunately, we’re stacked at Middle LB. I think the defense will still be the team’s strength.

    All the best to Nate. I hope he is able to move on in a positive direction for himself.

    Go Navy!!

  10. I expect this to have a huge impact on the offense. They will really have to move the ball without going 3 and out on successive drives. Having a tired D w/o Nate could be devastating. Hopefully there is a golden gem waiting in the wings to shine.

  11. Second most important player on the team to lose but as Paul Johnson used to say it’s part of the game.

  12. wow – harsh news.
    i always feel bad for kids caught in the honor thing. it’s so easy to lie, and so hard to make the tough choice when your back is against the wall.
    Don’t get me wrong, it’s not something you can turn on and off, and i don’t advocate a move from essentially what’s a zero tolerance policy. (i also have none of the facts of the case). but i think we all know that at 20 or 21, it’s very easy to make a bad choice or two.

    as to the impact on the field, i think it’s huge. yes, the Linebacker corps is deep, and i’m sure someone will step up at NG – but Nate was the anchor of the D. especially early in the season, this could really put a lot of pressure on others.

  13. Beer90: please read, don’t scan. I responded to a comment about Army: “I wouldn’t worry about Army.”

    The point of my comment was that, although this is a negative for the football team and for Nate Frazier, this can be viewed as a positive for the integrity of the institution. We don’t give away diplomas and we don’t sweep things under the rug. That has nothing to do with Army, as they do things the same way.

    Please be careful when attacking a post. It is not fair and does not contribute to the conversation.

  14. Linebackers don’t function all that well with O linemen in their faces…

  15. DJ: I have been known to misinterpret. If so, my apologies.

    That was not an attack, just a post of exasperation, angry at losing Nate and bewildered as to why Army even entered the “conversation.”

  16. Understood.

  17. This will hurt us a lot. Nate is a brilliant player.

    Hopefully our other defensive players can fill the void and carry on.

    Oh well, this sort of thing happens. Got to play the hand you’re dealt!

  18. Beer90,

    Say what you want about SS98, he was exactly right. Take a look at the time he posted and the time some Army jackass made a comment about standards here:

    http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=239&f=2423&t=4619100&p=1

    Time delta = ~4.5 hours.

    It’s hard to argue with a man who’s right. Did it belong on this thread/comment section…probably not. But, really…who are you (or I) to judge?

  19. So what. They can post what they want. Why do you care? My “question” was not a judgment on whether or not anyone is right or wrong about what they would do, only a commentary on why do “we” really give a crap. I don’t.

    Dead. . . horse. . . beaten. . .

  20. This is indeed a huge loss. Especially coming off the comments Wagner made a few days ago regarding the scrimmage and the excellent work that Frazier and Tuani were doing together. I wonder if Tuani can handle the nose guard position as well as he handled his usual position.

  21. Tuani’s not changing positions.

  22. Tuani has taken some reps at nose in practice. Anything is possible.

  23. The coaches have known for a while that this was a possible outcome so I would hope they’ve been giving added reps to Burge and Stephens this summer. Still gonna be a bear to replace Nate. I wonder why they wouldn’t consider moving Lark back. It’s a lot to ask of the kid, but barring injury, not sure how much time he’d see on OL.

  24. The d-line gets shifted around in obvious passing situations as always, but I’m pretty sure I read a quote that Tuani’s not moving.

  25. OK, it wasn’t a quote:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/18/navy-parts-ways-with-nose-guard-frazier/

    “Defensive coordinator Buddy Green said sophomore Jabaree Tuani, who led the team in tackles for loss, will remain at defensive end. “

  26. Mike,

    You know considerably more about the depth chart than I do. How is Burge as a replacement and will he have a good backup?

  27. I don’t know any more about the depth chart than anyone else.

  28. Mike, from what you do know, how do you think Burge will do? I know that he is not Frazier else Burge would have been the starter, but I know nothing about him.

  29. I dunno. I’ve never seen him play. Someone who’s gone to practice might be able to opine.

  30. Mike, fair enough. I did not know if you remembered him from any of your film study sessions.

  31. I have seen practice and Chase will be fine. I bumped into him at church and it is kinda like walking into a concrete pier support.. :)

  32. NAVYAIR, that is good to hear. On the bright side, this may very well be the best thing ever to happen to Burge.

  33. I don’t know the facts about Nate’s problems and I trust the Academy and it’s policies.
    This is a reminder of the commitment that a midshipman makes, and the fundamental truth that a Navy football player is first and foremost an officer.
    With that said . . . Nate spent two years in prep school preparing for USNA. From all indications, Nate wanted to be a naval officer. I wish him well and echo Coach Niumatalolo’s hope that Nate is able to complete his college education.
    . . . A good lesson for all future mids and especially for recruited athletes. This is a very special group of young Americans. . . . It is not now and never will be just a place to play division one sports.

  34. ShkNBake,

    Well said. That is why I love service academy athletics over all others.

  35. Wonder what D1 “team” he will end up on?

  36. ShkNbake has said it best. Let’s move on.

  37. http://www.hometownannapolis.com/blogs/post/2842747/FraziersFuture.html

    Wouldn’t be surprised if the “other ACC school” is Maryland, given that they just lost a DT themselves to transfer. No surprise that GT isn’t interested, given PJ’s overall disdain for transfers in general.

  38. Frazier’s going so Southern Florida. No bull.

  39. Well there goes the double teams that you know made the D better than it was 9and was it that good to begin with?).
    So no matter how good Chase looks and is -nobody is thinking about double teaming him and it will free up even more pounding into the middle.
    At least Nate wont have to face the 700 pounds of fury that was waiting for him in Columbus..
    Unless Tressel calls off dogs early (and that seems to be the case historically and with spread of only 21.5) this game would be worse than GA Tech years ago like 70-7.
    Now they can bang up the middle which they may have felt Frazier would have taken some of the inside away.
    At least teams had to THINK and some WORRY about Nate and bottom line a weapon is gone.
    Good luck wherever you go big guy-you could have been the best ever Navy lineman and this probably takes care of that in many peoples minds.

  40. Well Gary’s back.

  41. roflberger

  42. Missed me? Ok… dont answer that!

  43. South Florida it is … (but that crazy little North Alabama rumor got me to thinking about Big Nate hammering the crap out of some D-II centers)

  44. The South Florida weather would be a big change from Maryland. I was born and raised down there and that heat/humidity combination can suck all the energy out of you. I hope, if he does go there, that he can handle the radical change without too much trouble.

  45. I have to believe there is some unsung, overlooked but highly talented player waiting in the wings to step up. Otherwise, what is the point of bringing in 60 new players every year and having a ridiculously bloated roster. Last count we had 170 bodies! It is the most of any college football program in the country. Army has a cap of 150. When PJ was at Navy the roster was 147. How can we even have a meaningful practice. This is someone’s window of opportunity. Good luck to them.

  46. It’s a miracle we ever win

  47. One Man Does Not Make a Team………….

  48. Wait we have a 6`5 301 pound NG behemoth (by our standards) Jared Marks a sophomore in the wings?
    Anyone know about him and how he did in the spring?
    Is he still 301 or now 245 after it?

  49. I would venture to say no one was watching Jared Marks all that much, then or now. As previously stated, there are alot of players on the field. The 4’s and 5’s don’t get alot of reps and, consequently, don’t get alot of looks….not to mention the 6’s, 7’s, 8’s, etc…..

    Under PJ’s tenure, the roster was trimmed way back from well over 200 when he arrived to 140-150. One of many changes he made to the program was that the traditional “throw out a big net” mentality of service academy recruiting was scrapped.

    Air Force followed suit. Moreover, they have a JV head coach and a 7 game JV schedule…all in the name of player development. Let’s face it, we were lucky to beat them last year. KN was the first to admit it.

    The last hold out of the “throw out a big net” mentality was Army. That has changed with RE’s arrival. In 2008 Army had 220 on the roster! In 2009 Army has 153. RE cut 70 players, the rest graduated, from the team. The roster was pared down to 99 so when the new recruits were added the roster would cap out at 150.

    It bothers me that KN would “grow the roster” to 170 when PJ’s model proved to be so successfull. And if we keep bringing in 60 recruits a year, we will be up over 200 by the 2012 season.

    One man does not make a team….but neither does 170!

  50. I love how everyone has their little pet issues.

  51. But that’s what keeps blogging alive!

  52. Not exactly

  53. I would love to see the quote where KN said, “We were lucky to beat them (AF).” I don’t believe he ever said that.
    Aren’t special teams a part of the game? WTF? Maybe AF was lucky that we didn’t have our starting QB, didn’t play our best, and didn’t hammer them by 30?
    The roster size will only bother me if we start losing and someone can point to that as a reason why. Otherwise, I could care less about the roster size.

  54. The only reason a very large roster size is good is when we are clearly bashing AF and Army in the recruiting war, and hoarding all the good players so they don’t get them. Much like UCLA during the Wooden era in hoops.

    But I doubt that is the case.

  55. Good point and if you go to practices (as I have) there are alot of bodies standing around and the coaches don’t even know all the SOPHOMORE players’ names (let alone freshmen) which was the basis for my original post and subsequent comment regarding Jared Marks who, btw, is not even listed in the media guide!

    PJ taught us there is an inverse realtionship between roster size and player development and when I see Army following PJ’s model and Navy going away from it, well, you can call it a “pet issue” but I call it a “red flag.

  56. No, PJ cut the roster because he felt there were players that weren’t dedicated to working hard , and who just liked the prestige of being on the football team. He felt that it was necessary to fix what he called the “country club attitude.” The kids that were putting out the effort were absolutely welcome on the team even if PJ told them that they’d probably never get on the field.

    If you’re talking about who the coaches allegedly do and do not know, then you’re probably a player’s parent. Nobody else would 1) have any idea, or 2) care.This is not a forum to air whatever random grievance you have, disguised as an impartial fan’s commentary. There is NOTHING I hate more. It poisons the well of objectivity. I’d rather have a clone made from the DNA of Fisher DeBerry, David Ramsey, and Gary commenting here.

  57. I love how everyone has their little pet issues.

  58. 1) Since when are Navy fans impartial!

    2) The “country club attitude” still exists!

    3) I know when I’m not welcome. I won’t darken your door-step again!

  59. Im` lost a bit but thats why I keep coming back- I just saw we finally had a 300 pounder on D and got excited and wanted to know if anyone knew anything about him-thats all.- hoping that he was also a good player and could make a nice NG.

  60. North Alabama it is.

  61. Boy, ThinkPositive became LeaveQuickly.

  62. I stand corrected. According to my inside info, Frazier was going to Southern Florida. I think his decision to play right away is a good one. Either way I just hope he graduates. ThinkPositive come back. Blogs are basically open forums and an opportunity to share diverse opinions. Don’t be intimidated by those who don’t agree with you. Mike is very knowledgeable and does a great job but he sometimes likes to ride his high horse.

  63. If by “ride my high horse” you mean “try to keep the conversation honest,” you’re absolutely correct.

  64. I hope he gets stuck with a big bill. Even at rookie minimum, he should be able to pay it off in a couple of years.

  65. Hey Mike, I have an idea for another thread on here if you think it is worth discussing. The training camp roster for the Patriots this year consisted of Eric Kettani, Shun White, and Tyree Barnes. Kettani and Barnes were listed simply as Military/Reserve and White was listed under the wide receivers. As of today, on the Patriots site, it only shows White and has him listed as Military/Reserve. From what I can find on scout.com back in July it says that Kettani was signed. Do you think his lack of roster space is because of his commitment? Or should he still be listed on there despite having to serve his term? I am not as knowledgeable about these things as I probably should be.
    If all of this is true then, in a few years, there will be four former Midshipmen in the NFL.

  66. No. By “ride his high horse” I meant that you are often condescending and intolerant of those who don’t share your opinion. I hate to see Navy fanse afraid to disagree with you or feel that they are no longer welcome at this blog site. Nevertheless, you do a great job and are extremely knowledgeable (as I previously stated. Your breakdowns with the video clips are phenomenal and your understanding of the TO is unparalleled. I thought your poem about the Temple game was creative and it deeply moved me.

  67. It’s true. I am very intolerant of people coming here posing as Navy fans when in reality they’re only fans of their own kids. It’s a shame, because what blog couldn’t use more little league dads?

  68. Little league dads do suck. I just think you were a little harsh with ThinkPositive who is obviously new to your site. BTW, are you sure ThinkPositive isn’t a little league mom? The older I get, the less black and white things are. I thought it was constructive criticism and you could take it like a man. Please remember that my postings have definitely been far more complimentary of you than critical.

  69. So…who else likes chili cheese dogs?

  70. Allow me to explain where I’m coming from and if you want to pull the plug on me so be it. Say the word and I will not return.

    btw – anonymous, you are very perceptive, I am a mom

    When my son was being recruited by Navy, he got a phone call once a week, e-mails, hand-written letters…one time a rather bulky envelope arrived at the house. In it were THIRTEEN hand written cards and letters – one from every football coach on Navy’s staff – saying how important it was that he come to Navy…how much they needed him…how much he would like it there.

    Last December a Navy coach came to our home and in January Navy flew us to Annapolis for an official visit and really rolled out the red carpet…it was an amazing weekend! Before we left, Coach Niumatalolo called us into his office and gave my son a written offer which, obviously, he accepted.

    Now my son is there….what a shock. There are so many players everyone shares a number. There aren’t enough lockers so they have to share those two. It’s hard for everyone to get reps and he feels like a non-entity since there are coaches who don’t even know his name. I witnessed all of this myself when I was back for Plebe Parent’s Weekend. This is not humbling, this is humiliating.

    I am not a “little league mom” in the sense that I recognize a coach has to but the best 11 guys on the field and freshman are usually not in that number. But as was pointed out in an article posted online by a Cleveland Newspaper (which said there are 179 on the roster!) these are guys that love football so much they are willing to go to combat. Maybe the roster should be cut back to 150 so, at the very least, the coaches can learn everyone’s name!

  71. Mom or Dad, doesn’t matter. There is a difference between honest criticism and masked agendas. The former I can take. The latter, not so much. “Think Positive” might be this person’s latest nom de plume, but he/she isn’t new to the blog. Been complaining about the roster for a year now.

    https://thebirddog.wordpress.com/2008/09/13/postgame-haiku-vol-9/

    https://thebirddog.wordpress.com/2008/08/20/lolz/

    This has nothing to do with taking criticism, because in this case, I’m not dealing with criticism. I’m dealing with someone who wants to use my blog as the coaches’ complaint box, and that is not what this blog is intended to be. And even that I was willing to let slide the first two times with just a couple of one-liners. After the THIRD time, my patience had been depleted.

    And yes, I can be condescending. That’s because there are people that say stupid things. I don’t want football seasons filled with posters interpreting the meaning of winks they allegedly received from some coach they won’t name, or lacrosse seasons filled with OMG WE DIDN’T GO TO THE FINAL FOUR SO FIRE RICHIE. If I end up driving some people away, well, that’s kind of the point.

  72. ThinkPositive, my email address is bmbz@aol.com. We should talk.

  73. Think Positive,

    Part of the reason the roster is so large is because competitive athletics are a requirement. If you show a talent at football then, of course, you will get on the team in some capacity instead of being shuffled off to the Combative Basketweaving team. The fact that the academy has enough talented Midshipmen to have 170+ roster is actually something to be proud of.

  74. Wow. Nice memory, Mike. To quote a great American, Rodney King, “Why can’t we all just get along?”

  75. Because we all don’t have to. This blog is not the “open forum” that you suggest. It’s my own time-consuming, family-alienating, productivity-crushing pain in the ass, existing only so long as it continues to amuse me. As such, I get to decide what things will and won’t be tolerated. As you can see, this falls under “won’t.”

    Every player gets a one-on-one with the head coach at the end of camp. If someone has an issue, I suggest that he bring it up there instead of having his mom do it for him anonymously on some crummy blog.

  76. “I hope he gets stuck with a big bill.”

    That’s a helluva thing to wish on a twenty-something year old.

  77. Mike, I respect your hard work and the sacrifices you make for this blog site. And I do appreciate a little feistiness. And the “big bill” comment is definitely a bit harsh for a young man who gave his heart and soul to the Navy football program. He probably acted out of desperation. I’m sure he wanted nothing more than to play football for Navy and honor his commitment to his country.

  78. Hell, I hope Nate does so well at Northern Alabama that he gets the attention of the NFL scouts and winds up knocking heads in the big leagues. I like the way he plays.

  79. It’s too bad if Nate gets stuck with bill. I guess we should just let the taxpayers suck it up (again). At what point do we hold anyone accountable anymore? I do feel bad for Nate, but he made his bed. Don’t ask me, or anyone else, to lay in it.

  80. jgish92, do not get me wrong, I do believe he does own for what he was given, but the “big bill” statement made it sound like they wish for him to be saddled with the entire national debt.

  81. Nobody’s saying that he shouldn’t be held accountable, but that doesn’t mean that we have to hope the bill is huge. It’s supposed to be reimbursement, not punishment.

  82. Mike,

    Good for your, partner. I like your honesty. If people have an ax to grind, they can go somewhere else.

    BTW, I laughed out loud when I noticed that “Think Positive” was back at you less than 72hrs after she said that she wouldn’t “darken your door step again”. I suspect the irony escapes her.

  83. Just wanted to add my $0.02 to the roster size.

    I went to USNA when the football team was terrible and I had dozens of classmates who referred to themselves as football players, despite not playing a down or even dressing. Some of them were team players who worked hard. Some of them were just haning on so they didn’t have to drill or sit with their company. PJ had to cut the roster to get rid of the “dead weight.”

    I do not go to practices, so I don’t know if the bloated roster is the result of more “dead weight” or over-recruitment. I respect KN enough to think that he wouldn’t keep a guy in the program unless he was contributing to the program, so I will assume it’s the latter.

    Because of the difficulty of recruiting at Navy and the attrition that follows, it is imperative that KN over-recruit to compensate for the probable departures. It’s not much unlike a top-tier NCAA baseball program that over-recruits to compensate for the possible HS players who might opt for the pros after the draft.

    Unfortunately, lack of playing time and bigger rosters come with success on the field and on the recruiting path. While it may seem unfair to make a 17/18 year old kid make the decision, no one is guaranteed playing time when they sign on the dotted line. They have to show up in shape with a good attitude and outwork the guy next to him. And if the guy next to him wins the battle, well, welcome to the rest of your life.

  84. Well put, DJ

  85. Perhaps my contempt for Midn Frazier should be tempered somewhat. But all of this patting him on the back on his way out the door and hearty messages of “good luck Nate!” are nauseating. And spare me the sympathy for the “young and immature”– Nate had dollar signs in his eyes and he rolled the dice.

  86. prove it

  87. I disagree with the “dollar signs in his eyes” comment. If that was true, he probably would’ve left before 2 for 7. I wish him luck in so far as I hope this incident doesn’t have a serious negative impact on his life. But I firmly believe he should pay back what is owed to us.

  88. For a school that preaches loyalty, I am amazed at how quickly some people turn their backs. Nate screwed up, and he’s paying the price. He isn’t the first one, and he won’t be the last. No need to take it so personally. I don’t see why it’s unexpected, let alone nauseating, for the people who cheered for him for three years to hope for the best for him in the future, even if they’re disappointed in him now.

  89. “Nate had dollar signs in his eyes and he rolled the dice.” = completely baseless, libelous, and shameful accusation.

  90. Geez, people, were you so bastardly when Eckel had his incident and wound up paying the academy back? It happens.

  91. IMO something like this is like a car wreck, a plane crash, or a heart attack. They all suck and people get hurt.

    Haven’t seen too many facts getting bantered around wrt Frazier…none of us really know what went down.

    I am just sorry for Frazier and for Navy, and hope both can move on OK.

  92. Beer: I agree with you 110%. I feel sorry for the situation but not necessarily for Frazier. I am the fortunate parent of a graduated varsity athlete mid and a current youngster. The majority of mids cherish the honor code and want it upheld to highest degree. Moral has been hurt time and time again when rules are being bent for a select few. Both of my mids, who are bigtime football fans, commented that the sooner the separation of Nate happens the better.

    Also for those who said that Nate did not see dollar signs, I can’t prove it but I am sure it was in the back of his mind. Most of the Navy players don’t peak until well after signing the 2 for 7 papers. If Nate is successful in a jump to the pros, this will open up a “slippery slope” for service Academy football.

  93. Nate was released for violating the honor code, period. There is no way this was a pre-meditated ploy on his behalf. Sorry, but there is no conspiracy theory. And, BTW, Oswald acted alone. Quit peeking out the drapes and enjoy the sunshine

  94. No one said it was a pre meditated ploy. I simply stated that it might have been in the back of his mind. Most football players have a desire to play pro football from the the time they first put on the pads. Everytime a good ball player goes home his friends and peers probably ask him if he is looking at that option. Most people still don’t understand the obligation that the Academies require. All I am saying that it is human nature to look at alternatives when put under extreme pressure. If someone is banging their head against the wall to pass and engineering test or class, this back door option may be a parachute to get out of a bad situation. An honor violation at this going into the 1C year just does not make much sense. Oswald did act alone but the fact that there is another x Navy player at North Alabama, adds credence to my theory that Nate may have at least pondered this option previously. In fact Wagner’s article verified that Nate already had some contact with NFL scouts. You don’t talk to scouts if you are not pondering the pros.

  95. Slippery slope — are you kidding? Do you really think that talented 1st and 2nd class athletes at Navy are going to start committing honor offenses so thay can go play in the pros? I should have expected that something stupid was coming after reading “Beer: I agree with you 110%”

  96. Slippery slope- Kyle Eckel is now trying out for the Eagles after not serving 5 years. Jason Tomlinson turned down his commissioning, Nate Frazier self inflicted wound gets him kicked out of the Academy. If any of these guy crack it big in the NFL with a million plus contract, the temptation will be there. That is not stupid that is just a fact. Most upperclass would not give it a thought but the athlete that chose the Academy solely for the chance to play Div 1 Athletics might.

  97. You could have said that about the last 100 years of Navy football.

  98. GP,
    With respect, your logic makes no sense. If NF wanted to go to the pros because of “dollar signs” in his eyes, he could have just quit. He didn’t need to go through the trouble of an honor violation.

    “An honor violation at this going into the 1C year just does not make much sense.”
    I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt because you didn’t go to school there, but honor offenses can happen at any point. They’re committed by every year group. It’s not limited to plebes, youngsters and segundos only.

  99. NF had previous “issues” with the honor code, which is the reason why “honor remediation” was not considered in this case. Assumptions on the board are that NF woke up one day and decided to commit an honor offence, and that is not the case.

    The “dollar signs” comment is absurd on many fronts. If you have aspirations outside the Navy, there are much easier ways to quit: stop going to class, stop coming back for taps, wear jeans and a t-shirt to a forrestall lecture, check yourself into rehab, claim a religious/political objection to the military, etc.

    “Million dollar contracts” is a little overblown, as Eckel makes the minimum and the rest of these guys are on practice rosters.

  100. WT: I may be mistaken but I thought if a mid committed an honor violation he would get kicked out of school. I thought if a player quit, he would still have to make up time as an enlisted person. The latter would put a crimp on a shot at the NFL.

    I too completed my degree at a school with a strict honor code. Yes, violations can happen all the time but typically a senior or 1C can see the light at the end of the tunnel and they also know how far the rules can bend. Also, I assume the players are constantly counceled to avoid potential problems. The NF timing is suspect. However at this point all of this is speculation. Time for the season to start.

  101. GoatParent – your assertions are ridiculous, which had you attended navy, you might realize.
    To claim that someone was under pressure (for whatever reason, and let’s assume for this argument it was academics in the case of Nate) and therefore made a really bad decision to violate the HC (ie cheat) makes sense. He needed help and this was how he sought it out. Got caught and will pay the penalty.

    But to claim it was intentional in order to get out is a joke. First of all, dismissal for honor is not a given. WAY too many factors play in. And as a high profile football player, it’s even more likely he’d have some serious support (coaches, etc). I don;t know NF’s record, but there are easier ways to get out of the commitment then hoping you’ll get caught in a lie and then booted.

    And Eckel proves my point, not yours. He graduated, was commissioned, and was then let go. At a time, btw, when many were being let go. In fact, had Eckel not been a football player and hi-profile, i think he would have been riffed right away.

    Don’t assume you know the reasons why good athletes come to the academy. Our recent service selection record would tend to make you look foolish.

  102. Nobody is forced to enlist. One has to take an oath after all to enlist. And, that oath has to be voluntary. It can’t be coerced.

    Anyway, if NF wanted to get out via nefarious ways (which is a preposterous assertion on its face,) he would have been much more likely to claim he was gay than commit an HV. That is a much easier (and proven) method of getting out of military service than committing an HV. He would have been ineligible for enlisted service and he likely would not have been billed for school.

    This whole thing is ridiculous. Can’t believe I’m wasting my time on it. This will be my last post.

  103. It may be apples and oranges but I’m just wondering with the way things turned out for Frazier, how Terry got back after he was kicked off the team, but Sudderth was kicked off and stayed off. Do the rules get bent (as suggested by GoatParent) or do the coaches support (as suggested by newt91) some players but not others because Terry was a two-time letter winner and projected starter, but Sudderth was not. And for what it’s worth, players get kicked out of school and kicked of teams everyday all over college football, but Frazier’s incident is the first time I’ve ever heard of coaches helping get the dismissed player onto another team.

  104. Sudderth wasn’t kicked off. His waiver for an extra year of eligibility was denied by the NCAA.

    All “team rules” violations are not the same. These things are handled on a case by case basis, as they should be. Unless you know the specifics of both Terry’s and Frazier’s infractions, it’s pointless to compare.

  105. I thought Greg Sudderth’s extra year was denied, but Travis Sudderth was kicked off the team. Some reports say he left the academy, while others said he was dismissed from the academy.

    It’s an exercise in futility to compare the reasons and circumstances why Sudderth/Frazier/Terry were dismissed from the team. Frazier was obviously dismissed from football because he was separated, but to suggest that Terry got special treatment over Sudderth is pure speculation. The fact that Terry is still at USNA and Sudderth is not tells you that the situation is different.

  106. Ah, the other Sudderth… Duh.

  107. my comment about coaches supporting players at major conduct/academic/honor boards is well known. The rest of the chain of command is also there. Whether an individual is supported or not by any particular person asked to speak is case-by-case. i’ve seen it go both ways.

  108. Stop beating me. I’m already dead.

  109. On a sadly related note Kriss Proctor messed up his knee, had surgery, and is expected to be out for four weeks.
    As for Nate Frazier, it appears that he will not get to play football right away at Northern Alabama.

  110. Yes, Proctor had surgery to repair a torn meniscus which is relatively mild as knee surgery goes. They are moving Stukel back to QB which has suddenly made us even thinner at the position. Let’s hope Dobbs can stay healthy or it could be a very challenging season.

  111. mid parents need to be seen and not heard. i count my blessings that my parents both let me handle my service on my own, and make mistakes on my own.

    unless you’ve been there, you really have no right to throw around basless accusations or wild theories

  112. Perhaps I missed the transition from a time when Midshipmen took full responsibility for their success or failure at Navy to a new model where helicopter parents wedge themselves into that pile of challenges and relationships. We need officers who stand up for the mission and their people and haven’t the slightest interest in their overprotective parents interfering in their business. Navy/AFA/WP aren’t like other places where social issues or gentle nurturing or hovering parents are appropriate. Parents: write letters, send emails, read the blogs, attend games if you can, but butt out of the Midshipman experience. It’s not your life. It’s your Navy only as much as it’s any other taxpayer’s. And, believe me, football is a secondary pursuit at these public institutions where the most important part of the mission is building able and accountable leaders from the magnificent young men and women you raised.

  113. I am intrigued how earlier comments of mine questioning the character and intent of Nate Frasier for committing and honor code violation, have now evolved into critiques of my parenting skills, my level of intelligence and more. I have been told I am stupid and I should shut up and not be heard from. Frankly, I am dissapointed. These are vaporous attacks when one does not know anything about the identity of the blogger. Frankly I would expect better debate from gentlemen that have graduated from one of the greatest schools in the nation. The internet is a great forum and platform to discuss opinion and debate ideas. To simply shout over the other party or discount them with no regard is rather immature. Follow the blog thread. Anyone with an opposing opinion is immediate discounted as a “little league dad”, ” helicopter parent”, etc. Everyone has agendas on a blog. It may be unconditional support for football, your school, or belief system. I would just hope that bloggers would not be so fragile as to not at least listen, anylize, and debate opposing opinions. My comments were in full support of the USNA, you directed your angst at me but yet were in full support of a person who has let his teamates down and directly violated one of the major pillars of a great institution. It seems ironic.

  114. Some opinions aren’t worth analysis or debate.

  115. Hey, Mike, I have an interesting tidbit for you. In 1999 a Georgia Southern team lead by Paul Johnson defeated a Youngstown State team coached by Jim Tressel. It was the national championship game that year and Georgia Southern won 59 to 24.

  116. You’ll know everything you care to know about that game in a couple of days.

  117. So are we READY FOR SOME FOOTBALL?

  118. Looks like Bo Snelson, Gee Gee Greene and a host of other freshmen had no trouble getting recognized.

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